Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

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MrJonno
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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:27 am

Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:If either person involved in that had been carrying a firearm that wouldn't have been a viscous assault it would have been a murder quite obviously. The victim should consider herself fortunate that her assailant wasn't armed
And she should be thankful she wasn't armed why, exactly? With proper training he wouldn't have made it six feet inside the door.
She came downstairs and instantly got punched in the face without even knowing the guy was there, gun would have been removed from victim followed by dead victim.
Quite simply if she had carried a gun she would be dead
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Seth » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:44 am

MrJonno wrote:
Seth wrote:
MrJonno wrote:If either person involved in that had been carrying a firearm that wouldn't have been a viscous assault it would have been a murder quite obviously. The victim should consider herself fortunate that her assailant wasn't armed
And she should be thankful she wasn't armed why, exactly? With proper training he wouldn't have made it six feet inside the door.
She came downstairs and instantly got punched in the face without even knowing the guy was there, gun would have been removed from victim followed by dead victim.
Quite simply if she had carried a gun she would be dead
If she'd owned a gun she probably wouldn't have ventured downstairs in Condition White, she'd have come down in Condition Yellow with her pistol at the ready, assuming she heard something that brought her downstairs. Situational awareness is always important, even in your home. That's why they make perimeter alarm systems and dogs as well, so that you get advance warning of an intruder.

Bad tactics...nothing but bad tactics and the lack of proper defensive training and weapons.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Seth » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:46 am

Blind groper wrote:To Seth

Nothing you say alters the simple fact, that in the western country with massively the greatest number of hand guns, you also have massively the greatest number of murders. Your fantasy about more guns less crime is in fact, more guns more murders.
Nope. Proven false.
With about 100 million hand guns in the USA, you still have 4 times the per capita murder rate of other OECD countries. All those hand guns just make matters far worse.
And with the addition of millions of guns every year in the US where is the crime rate going? Up or down?

Down.

More guns, less crime. QED.
To FBM

I am glad you have a penis to shave, but more importantly, do you have a brain to exercise? Lots of others in this forum do not.
You being foremost among them.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Gallstones » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:17 pm

Too little information to go with the video, but illustrative all the same.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by MrJonno » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:47 pm

If she'd owned a gun she probably wouldn't have ventured downstairs in Condition White, she'd have come down in Condition Yellow with her pistol at the ready, assuming she heard something that brought her downstairs. Situational awareness is always important, even in your home. That's why they make perimeter alarm systems and dogs as well, so that you get advance warning of an intruder.

Bad tactics...nothing but bad tactics and the lack of proper defensive training and weapons.
Do people outside prison really think that way?
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Collector1337 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:08 pm

MrJonno wrote:
If she'd owned a gun she probably wouldn't have ventured downstairs in Condition White, she'd have come down in Condition Yellow with her pistol at the ready, assuming she heard something that brought her downstairs. Situational awareness is always important, even in your home. That's why they make perimeter alarm systems and dogs as well, so that you get advance warning of an intruder.

Bad tactics...nothing but bad tactics and the lack of proper defensive training and weapons.
Do people outside prison really think that way?
You've led a very sheltered, coddled existence haven't you?

One day your lack of situational awareness is going to get you killed and I'm going to laugh hysterically.

I bet mommy and daddy never taught you to look both ways when you cross the street either, did they? Because, that's all this is. It's just being aware of your surroundings. If you value your life. This is something you should care about.

You are the definition of a sheep.

I take solace in knowing that if there is any kind of disaster, you have any kind of run in with a criminal, or you are faced with any kind of life threatening situation in general, you will not have the wherewithal or gumption to save yourself and you will die.

I laugh at you and your pathetic nature.
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by aspire1670 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:31 pm

Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
If she'd owned a gun she probably wouldn't have ventured downstairs in Condition White, she'd have come down in Condition Yellow with her pistol at the ready, assuming she heard something that brought her downstairs. Situational awareness is always important, even in your home. That's why they make perimeter alarm systems and dogs as well, so that you get advance warning of an intruder.

Bad tactics...nothing but bad tactics and the lack of proper defensive training and weapons.
Do people outside prison really think that way?
You've led a very sheltered, coddled existence haven't you?

One day your lack of situational awareness is going to get you killed and I'm going to laugh hysterically.

I bet mommy and daddy never taught you to look both ways when you cross the street either, did they? Because, that's all this is. It's just being aware of your surroundings. If you value your life. This is something you should care about.

You are the definition of a sheep.

I take solace in knowing that if there is any kind of disaster, you have any kind of run in with a criminal, or you are faced with any kind of life threatening situation in general, you will not have the wherewithal or gumption to save yourself and you will die.

I laugh at you and your pathetic nature.
Does all your huffing and puffing steam up your PC when you post or is your armchair far enough away from the screen to prevent this?
All rights have to be voted on. That's how they become rights.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Seth » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:51 pm

Gallstones wrote:Too little information to go with the video, but illustrative all the same.
Pretty good tactics. I saw a few errors.

First, notice that when he comes out of the building his head is up and constantly on a swivel. He's actively looking for threats and none are visible because the assailants are hiding out of sight around the corner.

His response when the carjacker pulls the gun could go either way. He was lucky that the carjacker hesitated to shoot him long enough for him to draw and fire. This adds weight to my previous claims about being able to draw and fire on an armed assailant before he can react. The carjacker, in my estimation, was intent on jacking the car, not killing the occupant, so he hesitated and tried to use his gun to gain compliance. That lead to a fatal delay on his part because he wasn't really thinking about shooting whereas the victim knew instantly when the gun appeared what he had to do and he didn't hesitate at all. Note that this is confirmed by what the carjacker did as soon as the threat was turned on him: he tried to flee. It's EITHER flight OR fight, not both. It takes substantial training to perform a tactical retreat while still engaging the enemy. Special Ops teams spend years learning to "peel." It takes a lot of guts too because the instinct is, as we see in the video, to turn your back and run. You cannot engage the target and thereby either terminate the threat or keep him worrying about dodging bullets if your back is to him, so you have to face the attacker, use aimed fire and retreat backwards slowly enough that you don't trip over something and fall down. It's way tougher that you might think.

His most egregious mistake was when he exited his car. He approached the suspect, which is a BIG no-no tactically. Standard practice in any situation where you have just been attacked and had to shoot someone is to find COVER immediately from which you can keep the perp under observation while having maximum possible protection and STAY THERE until the police arrive and secure the assailant.

As we saw in the video there were TWO carjackers, one in grey and the other in dark clothing who dodged back around the corner as soon as the shooting started. While it's unlikely, he COULD have simply stepped around the corner and stopped to wait for the victim to come out in the open where he could be shot, which is exactly what the victim did. He was lucky the other guy ran instead.

I would have immediately taken cover behind the engine of the SUV with my pistol trained on the downed perp, to whom I'd be yelling "Don't move or I'll shoot again." I'd call for help both with my voice and by cellphone if I have one, and I would WAIT right there till the police showed up. When the got there I'd be shouting to them to cover the man down and I'd set my gun aside and prone out in front of the SUV, where I'm STILL under cover and wait for the police to come handcuff me before trying to explain things.

Other than that it was a very well executed defensive gun use. I'm pretty impressed actually.

Addendum: I'd have parked differently. I'd have backed in (as I always do) and given myself more room by putting the driver's door away from the wall. Moving the car farther from the door and wall gives you a better sight line and a bit more time to react.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Seth » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:53 pm

MrJonno wrote:
If she'd owned a gun she probably wouldn't have ventured downstairs in Condition White, she'd have come down in Condition Yellow with her pistol at the ready, assuming she heard something that brought her downstairs. Situational awareness is always important, even in your home. That's why they make perimeter alarm systems and dogs as well, so that you get advance warning of an intruder.

Bad tactics...nothing but bad tactics and the lack of proper defensive training and weapons.
Do people outside prison really think that way?
If they aren't idiot sheeple they do.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Seth » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:13 am

Daaaaaaaattttaaaaaaa!
Crime
Don’t Mess With a Man’s Family: Armed Texas Dad Takes on THREE Home Intruders
Jul. 1, 2013 11:00pm Jason Howerton

A Texas dad fought back against three home intruders on Sunday after they broke into his Houston apartment, demanded money and showed a gun.

The protective father and husband, identified as Javier Ortiz, then pulled his own firearm and shot two of the suspected burglars to death, police said. The third suspect ran for his life.

Ortiz’s wife, Lila Pena, said the three men broke into their home and demanded, “the money, the money.”

Pena told KPRC-TV that her kids witnessed the horrifying incident. The family is understandably shook up by the attempted robbery, but they are thankful for Ortiz’s heroic action.

“My dad took the gun out, then he shot the two,” Pena’s 7-year-old son said. “He’s a great hero.”

video platformvideo managementvideo solutionsvideo player

Police are still searching for the third suspect who was able to escape with his life.

“There was a third suspect that fled the scene. We have very limited information on that person,” said Ivan Ulloa of the Houston Police Department’s Homicide Division.

KPRC-TV reporter Camille Williams reported police believe Ortiz shot the men in self-defense, but this case will be sent to the Harris County District Attorney’s Office for review.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:02 am

datadatadatadatadata:
Crime
Shots Fired: Armed Calif. Man Finds Home Intruder Crawling Through the Doggy Door
Jul. 2, 2013 10:34pm Jason Howerton

4
4
0
0
6

A home intruder found himself in a very vulnerable situation during an early morning burglary attempt in Lower Lake, Calif., on Sunday. More specifically, the would-be robber found himself face-to-face with an armed man who wasn’t too happy about him trying to break into his home through the doggy door.

Multiple gun shots were fired by the resident of the home, though no one was hit by the bullets.
Worst Burglar Ever Extremely Lucky He Wasnt Killed in Doggy Door Break In

shutterstock.com

Deputies with the Lake County Sheriff’s Office reportedly responded to a home invasion robbery call in Lower Lake at around 6:45 a.m. on Sunday.

The occupants of the home told deputies that they thought they heard someone breaking into the house through the doggy door. A male resident of the home got his gun and went to investigate the noise.

He found a man crawling through the doggy door in an attempt to gain entry into the house.

The resident was questioning the home intruder when he reportedly began lifting what looked like a firearm. The man fired twice at the criminal, sending him running for his life. He apparently did not hit the suspect.

The resident then saw a second suspect in the yard who he told police also appeared to have a firearm. When the second suspect raised the apparent weapon, the man fired two more times. He seemingly missed the other suspect as well as the local news reports incident that no one was injured in the incident.

More from the Lake County News:

According to the report, a set of keys found in the back yard fit an unfamiliar vehicle found parked at a nearby resident and while searching that vehicle deputies [discovered] the wallet of 36 year old Thomas Lee Sargent of Clearlake.

The following day, July 1, the LCSO Major Crimes Unit located Sargent and arrested him for burglary and conspiracy to commit a felony based upon his statements and evidence found at the scene.

Sargent was booked into Lake County Hill Road Correctional Facility.

Worst Burglar Ever Extremely Lucky He Wasnt Killed in Doggy Door Break In

36 year old Thomas Lee Sargent of Clearlake arrested for burglary Monday. (Lake County News)
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Blind groper » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:01 am

To Seth, for about the millionth time.
Anecdotes are not data. With 100,000 shootings in the USA each year, quoting a tiny number of stories about shootings that match your prejudices (probably from the NRA web site) shows nothing more than the fact that you do not know the difference between evidence and bullshit.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:50 pm

Today in the UK zero people used firearms defensively statistically maybe 1 or even 2 people will have been murdered

In the US today on average around about 35 people will have been murdered and according to Seth about 2000 were prevented by 'law-abiding citizens'

Armed-self defence really makes you safer not
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by Collector1337 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:27 pm

This is what you two geniuses don't understand.

I could give a shit about statistics. I don't live my life based on probability. If I did, I would NEVER get in an automobile because that's statistical suicide, but even with the stats on auto accidents, people still get in their cars everyday and come away unscathed.

Since I am competent, clearly having a firearm is a wise choice. If having a gun was such a horrible idea, then cops and bodyguards, etc, etc, etc... would not have guns because it would lessen their safety. However, they all have guns, so clearly that is not the case.

Why the fuck would I listen to a couple clowns who cite biased sources, when clearly, people who are experts and know what they are doing, ALL HAVE GUNS?

Why don't you just say, "Forget about what the actual experts do! Do what I do because living your life by statistics is the way to go!?"

I've lived my entire life, from the second I was born, with firearms in the house. As have ALL of my extended family and countless friends. All without a single episode of suicide, negligent discharge, or anything negative of any sort.

It's about COMPETENCE!

Why do you promote ineptitude and dependence on government? Isn't people taking care of themselves as best they can what's best for everyone?
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Re: Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:48 pm

I could give a shit about statistics. I don't live my life based on probability.
I do, its the basis of being a rational human being
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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