Another shot at the case against gnus

[Seth]

What a lunatic fucking country...

Seriously...

No, what's lunatic is that you consider any display of a gun to be a lunatic and dangerous thing, whereas here in the US, in the vast majority of places in the US (outside of major metropolitan areas) the open display or carrying of guns is so commonplace and unremarkable as to be ignored by everyone, and occasionally sanctioned by the community. I used to carry my .22 bolt-action rifle to school on the school bus, with ammunition, on a weekly basis so that I could attend school-sponsored NRA rifle marksmanship classes. I attained the NRA Expert Marksman badge when I was 12.

And back then school shootings were utterly unheard of. It wasn't until the liberal Progressive fuckwits in charge of the schools started "zero tolerance" anti-gun indoctrination and panicking everybody about guns and turned them into a boogey-man and tool for the bullied and mentally unstable students by harping on how horrible guns are in any context that we started to see students shooting up schools. You can thank the National Education Association and their minions for much of that.

The routine carrying of guns, particularly true in rural areas and especially true in areas where hunting is commonplace. It is not in the least bit unusual to see hunters wearing sidearms (for bears) and carrying rifles into cafes because it's safer than leaving them in the truck, where they could be stolen.

I just got back from three days in the Colorado wilderness where I wore a .45 HK USP Tactical every minute of every day because it's not just a prudent defensive tool against rampaging animals (like bears) and other vermin, its a good way to summon help if you get lost or stranded. Gunshots carry a long way out there. And not one of the people I encountered commented on my pistol or even seemed to notice it.

The Rifle cafe is not doing anything it hasn't been doing for years (I know, I've been there) except making a public statement to kick sand in the faces of jackasses who piss themselves at the sight of a gun.

It's just impossible to get across to psychotic hoplophobes that a gun is an inanimate piece of metal that does nothing at all unless operated by a human being, and therefore it's as rational to fear a gun as it is to fear a hammer or a kitchen knife or a chain saw.

What you have to fear is other people who may be insane or criminally inclined who might use a gun to harm you. And the very best way of ensuring that this does not happen is for all the people around you who are NOT insane or criminally inclined to be armed, openly or covertly, so that in any situation they, the good, law abiding armed citizens of the community always outnumber the insane and criminally inclined.

And then there's the bears and cougars. Where I live both have been seen in my neighborhood within the last six months.

[LucidFlight]

Why do our internal affairs so incense people who a) don't live here b) aren't going to visit here and c) are not affected in any way, shape or form by said internal affairs? Honestly, why are you so pissed off? Fuck, y'all do all sorts of things we wouldn't do, like let asylum seekers rot in gulags while we let every Tomas, Ricardo and Enrique swim across the river to mow our lawns. You had a "whites only" immigration policy far, far, far longer than we did. Hell, we even went to Africa and brought a few million over by force, just to show our commitment to cultural diversity.

Jim, your son and his partner just visited the States. I'm sure they saw thousands of people brandishing assault rifles, dozens of short order cooks murdered for burning the hash browns and shoot outs on Main Street at noon. How could you let them even think of visiting such a barbaric, backwards, inbred place?

At least in part, it's a reaction to Seth calling people in Oz "slaves" because we don't worship at the Holy Church of the Gun...

No, you're slaves because you have allowed your government to take away from you the ultimate means of taking control of the aforesaid government should it turn on you, as has happened again and again and again in history.

Actually, Seth does raise a very interesting issue here. Many Australians I've spoken with are quite unhappy about their current government and its leadership by the hands of a mister Abbott (did I spell that correctly?). Imagine if Australians could take up arms against this oppressive and failed, Marxist dictatorship, and put into place a system more like the free society which America is today. What would that look like? How would that unfold? I think such a scenario must be explored in detail, for the sake of the Australian people.

[piscator]

I just got back from three days in the Colorado wilderness where I wore a Logitech Tactical USB game controller every minute of every day because it's not just a prudent defensive tool against rampaging animals (like bears) and other vermin, its a good way to summon help if you get lost or stranded. Gunshots carry a long way out there. And not one of the people I encountered commented on my pistol or even seemed to notice it.

Did you bag any Liberals while you were up in the high country?

[Seth]

I just got back from three days in the Colorado wilderness where I wore a Logitech Tactical USB game controller every minute of every day because it's not just a prudent defensive tool against rampaging animals (like bears) and other vermin, its a good way to summon help if you get lost or stranded. Gunshots carry a long way out there. And not one of the people I encountered commented on my pistol or even seemed to notice it.

Did you bag any Liberals while you were up in the high country?

Bears et em as the libbos tried to hug them in a display of environmental solidarity. Now not only are their political ideas shit, so are they.

[piscator]

Most black bears down there weigh less than deer and are more likely to hightail it at the jinglajanglejingle of your spurs and the slapslapslap of your gunleather on your ass.

Just don't leave any donuts and Twinkies laying around, and you should be OK any place in "The wilderness" that you can get to in a pair of Tony Lamas with a 5lb chunk of metal strapped to one thigh.

[Seth]

Most black bears down there weigh less than deer and are more likely to hightail it at the jinglajanglejingle of your spurs and the slapslapslap of your gunleather on your ass.

I don't wear spurs and my gear doesn't make a sound, for a very good reason, although panty-waist "experts" do recommend bear bells and making lots of noise, especially in Grizzly country, to shoo them off, which usually works. The biggest threat is surprising a female with cubs and getting between mom and cubs.

Still, singing, whistling and talking works as well as bells and can be shut off if stealth is called for.

But you're wrong about black bears in Colorado, which generally outweigh deer, and which, of all the bear species, are more likely to attack a human than even brown or grizzlies. Most human injuries in bear attacks are caused by black bears.
Nor would I care to go hand-to-hand with any bear that weighs the same as I do (about 230 pounds) which is a smallish two-year old bear around here.

Black bear weight tends to vary according to age, sex, health, and season. Seasonal variation in weight is very pronounced: in autumn, their pre-den weight tends to be 30% higher than in spring, when black bears emerge from their dens. Black bears on the East Coast tend to be heavier on average than those on the West Coast, although black bears follow Bergmann's rule and bears from the northwest are often slightly heavier than the bears from the southeast. Adult males typically weigh between 57–250 kg (126–551 lb), while females weigh 33% less at 41–170 kg (90–375 lb).[5][37] In the state of California, studies have indicated that the average mass is 86 kg (190 lb) in adult males and 58 kg (128 lb) in adult females.[32] Adult black bears in Yukon Flats National Wildlife Refuge in east-central Alaska were found to average 87.3 kg (192 lb) in males and 63.4 kg (140 lb) in females, whereas on Kuiu Island in southeast Alaska (where nutritious salmon are readily available) adult bears averaged an estimated 115 kg (254 lb).[38][39] In Great Smoky Mountains National Park, adult males averaged 112 kg (247 lb) and adult females averaged 47 kg (104 lb) per one study.[40] In Yellowstone National Park, a population study found that adult males averaged 119 kg (262 lb) and adult females averaged 67 kg (148 lb).[41] In New York state, the two sexes reportedly average 135 kg (298 lb) and 74 kg (163 lb), respectively.[42] Adults typically range from 120 to 200 cm (47 to 79 in) in head-and-body length, and 70 to 105 cm (28 to 41 in) in shoulder height. The typically small tail is 7.7–17.7 cm (3.0–7.0 in) long.[34][43][44][45] Although they are the smallest species in North America, large males exceed the size of other bear species except the brown bear and polar bears.[34] The biggest wild American black bear ever recorded was a male from New Brunswick, shot in November 1972, that weighed 409 kg (902 lb) after it had been dressed, meaning it weighed an estimated 500 kg (1,100 lb) in life, and measured 2.41 m (7.9 ft) long.[46] Another notably outsized wild black bear, weighing in at 408 kg (899 lb) in total, was the cattle-killer shot in December 1921 on the Moqui Reservation in Arizona.[46] The record-sized bear from New Jersey was shot in Morris County December 2011 and scaled 376.5 kg (830 lb).[47] Even larger, the most massive black bear recorded in Pennsylvania (one of six weighing over 363 kg (800 lb) shot in the last 15 years in the state) weighed in at 399 kg (880 lb) and was shot in November 2010 in Pike County.[48] The North American Bear Center, located in Ely, Minnesota, is home to the world's largest captive male and female black bears. Ted, the male, weighed 431–453.5 kg (950–1,000 lb) in the fall of 2006.[49] Honey, the female, weighed 219.6 kg (484 lb) in the fall of 2007.[50]

The record black bear in Colorado seems to be 703 pounds, killed in 2010.

Just don't leave any donuts and Twinkies laying around, and you should be OK any place in "The wilderness" that you can get to in a pair of Tony Lamas with a 5lb chunk of metal strapped to one thigh.

Shows how much you know about back-country hiking and hunting in Colorado (which is nothing). Nobody wears cowboy boots with spurs hiking, although some people do prefer a double-action .450 Casull revolver to a semi-automatic, and I have seen the odd single-action Colt in .45LC on the occasional hunter.

[piscator]

Most black bears down there weigh less than deer and are more likely to hightail it at the jinglajanglejingle of your spurs and the slapslapslap of your gunleather on your ass.

I don't wear spurs and my gear doesn't make a sound, for a very good reason, although panty-waist "experts" do recommend bear bells and making lots of noise, especially in Grizzly country, to shoo them off, which usually works. The biggest threat is surprising a female with cubs and getting between mom and cubs.

Still, singing, whistling and talking works as well as bells and can be shut off if stealth is called for.

But you're wrong about black bears in Colorado, which generally outweigh deer, and which, of all the bear species, are more likely to attack a human than even brown or grizzlies. Most human injuries in bear attacks are caused by black bears.
Nor would I care to go hand-to-hand with any bear that weighs the same as I do (about 230 pounds) which is a smallish two-year old bear around here.

Black bear weight tends to vary according to age, sex, health, and season. Seasonal variation in weight is very pronounced: in autumn, their pre-den weight tends to be 30% higher than in spring, when black bears emerge from their dens. Black bears on the East Coast tend to be heavier on average than those on the West Coast, although black bears follow Bergmann's rule and bears from the northwest are often slightly heavier than the bears from the southeast. Adult males typically weigh between 57–250 kg (126–551 lb), while females weigh 33% less at 41–170 kg (90–375 lb).[5][37] In the state of California, studies have indicated that the average mass is 86 kg (190 lb) in adult males and 58 kg (128 lb) in adult females.[32] Adult black bears in Yukon Flats National Wildlife Refuge in east-central Alaska were found to average 87.3 kg (192 lb) in males and 63.4 kg (140 lb) in females, whereas on Kuiu Island in southeast Alaska (where nutritious salmon are readily available) adult bears averaged an estimated 115 kg (254 lb).[38][39] In Great Smoky Mountains National Park, adult males averaged 112 kg (247 lb) and adult females averaged 47 kg (104 lb) per one study.[40] In Yellowstone National Park, a population study found that adult males averaged 119 kg (262 lb) and adult females averaged 67 kg (148 lb).[41] In New York state, the two sexes reportedly average 135 kg (298 lb) and 74 kg (163 lb), respectively.[42] Adults typically range from 120 to 200 cm (47 to 79 in) in head-and-body length, and 70 to 105 cm (28 to 41 in) in shoulder height. The typically small tail is 7.7–17.7 cm (3.0–7.0 in) long.[34][43][44][45] Although they are the smallest species in North America, large males exceed the size of other bear species except the brown bear and polar bears.[34] The biggest wild American black bear ever recorded was a male from New Brunswick, shot in November 1972, that weighed 409 kg (902 lb) after it had been dressed, meaning it weighed an estimated 500 kg (1,100 lb) in life, and measured 2.41 m (7.9 ft) long.[46] Another notably outsized wild black bear, weighing in at 408 kg (899 lb) in total, was the cattle-killer shot in December 1921 on the Moqui Reservation in Arizona.[46] The record-sized bear from New Jersey was shot in Morris County December 2011 and scaled 376.5 kg (830 lb).[47] Even larger, the most massive black bear recorded in Pennsylvania (one of six weighing over 363 kg (800 lb) shot in the last 15 years in the state) weighed in at 399 kg (880 lb) and was shot in November 2010 in Pike County.[48] The North American Bear Center, located in Ely, Minnesota, is home to the world's largest captive male and female black bears. Ted, the male, weighed 431–453.5 kg (950–1,000 lb) in the fall of 2006.[49] Honey, the female, weighed 219.6 kg (484 lb) in the fall of 2007.[50]

The record black bear in Colorado seems to be 703 pounds, killed in 2010.

Just don't leave any donuts and Twinkies laying around, and you should be OK any place in "The wilderness" that you can get to in a pair of Tony Lamas with a 5lb chunk of metal strapped to one thigh.

Shows how much you know about back-country hiking and hunting in Colorado (which is nothing). Nobody wears cowboy boots with spurs hiking, although some people do prefer a double-action .450 Casull revolver to a semi-automatic, and I have seen the odd single-action Colt in .45LC on the occasional hunter.

Stupid shit about some zoo bear in Ely, Minnesota, or that 703lb one those Libertarians in Craig fed for years and murdered in its den before they mis-weighed it are not evidence that you really need to carry a gun in a Forest Service campground in Colorado. There are less than 30 7+ foot blackies sealed in Alaska/yr. The one on my wall weighed less than 400 lbs, but I killed him above treeline. Some places, blackies can get at salmon runs and get fatter, but they aren't going to bother anyone.


"Handgun hunting" is a "sport" invented by gun manufacturers and practiced by 9th-level losers who're so far down the road that gun magazines count as journalism. Just the type of douchebag who becomes an insufferable expert after he visits a high fence shooting ranch in Texas and comes back with an Axis deer. When I see a "Handgun Hunter", I know I'm looking at a truly rare bird.

You can pick up POS .454 Casulls up here all day for $400, BTW. They're sold for bear defense, not bear hunting. But no one here wants to pay $100 for 20 rounds of ammo, so it's a buyer's market.
(Last time I read about a .454 Casull being used, it was a guy who claimed he had to get out of his car and empty it in a charging 9+ foot brownie's back (don't worry about it, no one else thinks that makes sense either). A year later, that same guy's brother stood behind a tree at 3AM and opened up on a sow and 3 cubs with his fucking AR-15 at the Russian River Ferry. One cub lived after the USF&WS had to put down the mother and 2 cubs. Orphan "Goldie" made it for another year on stolen coolers and fish carcasses, before he was killed by another bear. )

A 12ga pump is the only serious choice for bear defense this side of a Holland's. But now we're talking grizzlies, and then only misunderstandings. Blackies are not a personal protection issue in Alaska, anymore than in Colorado. I've raised a daughter and 3 sons here in Bear Country, BTW.

[Seth]

Stupid shit about some zoo bear in Ely, Minnesota, or that 703lb one those Libertarians in Craig fed for years and murdered in its den before they mis-weighed it are not evidence that you really need to carry a gun in a Forest Service campground in Colorado.

There's other vermin about in the woods than just bears.

There are less than 30 7+ foot blackies sealed in Alaska/yr. The one on my wall weighed less than 400 lbs, but I killed him above treeline. Some places, blackies can get at salmon runs and get fatter, but they aren't going to bother anyone.

Until they do.

"Handgun hunting" is a "sport" invented by gun manufacturers and practiced by 9th-level losers who're so far down the road that gun magazines count as journalism. Just the type of douchebag who becomes an insufferable expert after he visits a high fence shooting ranch in Texas and comes back with an Axis deer. When I see a "Handgun Hunter", I know I'm looking at a truly rare bird.

Self defense is not hunting.

You can pick up POS .454 Casulls up here all day for $400, BTW. They're sold for bear defense, not bear hunting. But no one here wants to pay $100 for 20 rounds of ammo, so it's a buyer's market.

Yup.

(Last time I read about a .454 Casull being used, it was a guy who claimed he had to get out of his car and empty it in a charging 9+ foot brownie's back (don't worry about it, no one else thinks that makes sense either). A year later, that same guy's brother stood behind a tree at 3AM and opened up on a sow and 3 cubs with his fucking AR-15 at the Russian River Ferry. One cub lived after the USF&WS had to put down the mother and 2 cubs. Orphan "Goldie" made it for another year on stolen coolers and fish carcasses, before he was killed by another bear.)

Sucks to be a bear sometimes, what with man at the top of the food chain. Plenty of bears about, none of them will be missed.

A 12ga pump is the only serious choice for bear defense this side of a Holland's. But now we're talking grizzlies, and then only misunderstandings. Blackies are not a personal protection issue in Alaska, anymore than in Colorado. I've raised a daughter and 3 sons here in Bear Country, BTW.

Really? Ask these folks.

[piscator]

Stupid shit about some zoo bear in Ely, Minnesota, or that 703lb one those Libertarians in Craig fed for years and murdered in its den before they mis-weighed it are not evidence that you really need to carry a gun in a Forest Service campground in Colorado.

There's other vermin about in the woods than just bears.

It's a scary place, for some people.

There are less than 30 7+ foot blackies sealed in Alaska/yr. The one on my wall weighed less than 400 lbs, but I killed him above treeline. Some places, blackies can get at salmon runs and get fatter, but they aren't going to bother anyone.

Until they do.

When Raccoons Attack!

At 9:30 on a sunny July morning, the screaming starts: a ragged, half-human keen that pierces the halcyon woods flanking our western Pennsylvania home. My wife, Debbie, our 11-year-old son, Jack, and I run outside to see what's being murdered. There, beside a patch of Big Boy tomatoes, stand our two pugs, Lefty and Biscuit, with something scruffy and feral wedged between them. It takes a moment to realize what exactly is happening. A 20-pound raccoon has affixed its teeth to the jowly flesh of Biscuit's muzzle and won't let go.

I grab a shovel and pin the raccoon's torso to the ground, which only intensifies the creature's screams. Putting my full weight into it, I try to shovel the attacking beast in half. Debbie grabs Biscuit's trunk and tries to yank her free, but the raccoon's teeth refuse to unclamp. Debbie yells for our friend Rudy Plese, who's inside working on a carpentry job. He runs out and grabs another shovel.

"Hit it on the head," shouts Debbie, whose own hands are now perilously close to the raccoon's teeth. Rudy raps the beast's brainpan once, then again, and again.

"Whack it harder," I say, trying my best to snap its spine with my own shovel...

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... ons-attack

"Handgun hunting" is a "sport" invented by gun manufacturers and practiced by 9th-level losers who're so far down the road that gun magazines count as journalism. Just the type of douchebag who becomes an insufferable expert after he visits a high fence shooting ranch in Texas and comes back with an Axis deer. When I see a "Handgun Hunter", I know I'm looking at a truly rare bird.

Self defense is not hunting.

I thought you had mentioned the many joys of hunting with a handgun recently in this thread. My bad.

(Last time I read about a .454 Casull being used, it was a guy who claimed he had to get out of his car and empty it in a charging 9+ foot brownie's back (don't worry about it, no one else thinks that makes sense either). A year later, that same guy's brother stood behind a tree at 3AM and opened up on a sow and 3 cubs with his fucking AR-15 at the Russian River Ferry. One cub lived after the USF&WS had to put down the mother and 2 cubs. Orphan "Goldie" made it for another year on stolen coolers and fish carcasses, before he was killed by another bear.)

Sucks to be a bear sometimes, what with man at the top of the food chain. Plenty of bears about, none of them will be missed.

I bet you can say that for a lot of people, Seth. Good to see you regard bears highly enough to anthropomorphize them like that, but can't you see that both these assholes have initiated force and fraud upon the public property?

A 12ga pump is the only serious choice for bear defense this side of a Holland's. But now we're talking grizzlies, and then only misunderstandings. Blackies are not a personal protection issue in Alaska, anymore than in Colorado. I've raised a daughter and 3 sons here in Bear Country, BTW.

Really? Ask these folks.

Hadn't been a fatal bear attack in Colorado in decades, and that one in '93 is a little dodgy. He might have been asking for it too. Hollow justification to carry a firearm in my book, but you evidently needed one, so you seized it. I live in one of the thickest concentrations of blackies in Ak, and just like my neighbors, I only pack a gun on extended hikes or rides, or when I'm hunting. We see bears all the time, but don't feel threatened.


How long has it been since you ventured out of doors without a weapon of some kind? Don't you think that might be regarded as some type of obvious psychological crutch?

[Gallstones]

Yellowstone Grizzly Bear Kills Hiker: Couple's Screaming, Running Possibly Triggered Attack July 3, 2014

Bear Attacks Hunter in SW Montana Jun 02 2014

Salish-Kootenai College Student Mauled by Grizzly April 20, 2013

Several Bear Attacks Across America August 18 2013

Four suffer minor injuries in Yellowstone grizzly bear attacks 16 August 2013

Terror at Soda Butte Montana Outdoors September-October 2012

What’s Behind The Grizzly Bear Attacks In Yellowstone? Tuesday, June 19, 2012

Will 2012 bring another summer of increased grizzly bear attacks? June 11th, 2012

Montana bear attack puts hikers and campers on alert 8/3/2010

List of fatal bear attacks in North America

Maps

Ask A Bear: How Many Bear Attacks, Really? No date

In the 2000s, there have been 27 fatal incidences so far in North America, resulting in 29 deaths. 15 were in Canada, three were in Alaska, two were in Tennessee, and single fatal attacks happened in New York, New Mexico, California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Utah and Montana. 17 of those attacks were perpetrated by black bears, and 10 by grizzlies.

Ask A Bear: Which Park Has The Most Bear Attacks No date

Out of the U.S. national parks, Glacier leads with the highest number of deaths over the last 100 years: 10. Yellowstone is second with seven, and Katmai is a distant third with two.

The reasons Glacier leads the pack aren't a mystery; combine the densest population of grizzlies in the Lower 48 with increasing visitation,

Dog that survived wolf attack mauled by cougar MARCH 5, 2014

the story about Shelby, the dog that went with its owner to a committee hearing at the Washington Legislature last year (above) all scarred up after being attacked by a wolf as it slept on the porch of its Twisp-area home.

This week, Shelby is back in the news after being attacked again in its yard — this time by a mountain lion.

Authorities kill problem mountain lion near Missoula December 18, 2013

Man Uses Spear to Kill Mountain Lion Attacking Woman September 18, 2013

Problem mountain lion caught after attack August 03, 2012

List of fatal cougar attacks in North America


And then there are the moose.....



Around here, when the locals go into a mountain lake or the back country, they bring a handgun.
A couple years ago the veterinarian was fishing a mountain lake--we have hundreds less than a day hike away--when he was stalked and charged by a black bear. He was prudent enough to have a sidearm on him. He had to shoot it.

[Gallstones]

I have fired a Thompson Center Contender .30-06
Too high a caliber to be comfortable for me.

For hunting, a pistol is a lot less gun weight to have to schlep.

[Gallstones]

Handgun Hunter Magazine

Handgun Hunting

Handgun hunting is primarily done with specialized handguns that have long barrels and are often set up with scopes (optical aiming devices).

Even the largest animals, such as elephants, can be killed with modern hunting handguns, although most handgun hunters only use handguns when hunting medium-sized game like deer and wild hogs.
...
Handgun hunting differs from rifle or shotgun hunting because a significant amount of shooting practice must be undertaken in order to become and remain proficient. Hunting handguns are every bit as capable for big-game hunting as rifles, particularly if the handgun is a single shot pistol shooting a cartridge that is typically fired from a rifle (e.g., 7-30 Waters). It is not uncommon for a skilled handgun hunter to be able to cleanly take game at ranges exceeding 100 yards, even 200+ is possible with a single-shot, scoped hunting pistol.

From someone who does it:
Hunting with the Short Gun

I learned that high-speed, hollow-point ammunition was key to a successful small-game hunt. Since then I have successfully taken dozens of wild pigs and deer, a bison, a nyala and a blesbok with handguns.

For the purposes of our discussion here, I am referring to those handguns that can be carried in a holster on your person. There has been a tendency for some to hunt with rifles with abbreviated barrels and the buttstock sawed off. These guns stretch the definition of handgun to its limits, and I have no interest in them. If you like them, fine, but then if you are of that ilk you probably don’t need my advice. My own upper limit on these things is the Thompson/Center Contender, and if you have really big hands, include the Encore pistol. Also, with very few exceptions, semi-auto pistols should be relegated to two-legged predators—self defense. Most popular chamberings are just not powerful enough to humanely and reliably take big game. The exceptions would include the Desert Eagle in its heaviest chamberings and full-size pistols in 10 mm Auto.
...
When I went to Africa in 2008, the animals ranged from the deer-sized brushbuck to elk-sized kudu. We tried to keep the ranges short but hunting is hunting, and the animals often have a say in the matter. I shot a nyala at 122 yards with a .460 S&W Mag., and one of my buddies, Bill Booth, took a kudu at 275 yards with a .500 S&W Mag. In order to reliably make shots like these you do need the higher velocity of these cartridges.

Optical sights help the handgun hunter just as they do riflemen. On the other hand they also accentuate shakes and movement.
...
Packing the handgun depends upon its size and how you plan to hunt. I use everything from a traditional belt holster to shoulder rigs. When I drag along my G2 with a .30-30 Winchester barrel down to the ground blind I simply stuff it my hunting pack. I am currently having a tanker-style holster made for my Smith & Wesson K-22 for varminting from a truck. When choosing a rig don’t neglect to consider how you will carry some spare ammo. You won’t need 60 rounds of ammo in magazines, but a spare cylinder full for a revolver or, say, three rounds for a single-shot pistol should keep you in the game.

Like bowhunting, the handgun hunter deliberately puts some additional restraints on his or her hunting. Stalking and ambush prowess become more important, and that is the allure of hunting with the short gun. Start slow and build your arsenal as your skill set grows.

[piscator]

I have fired a Thompson Center Contender .30-06
Too high a caliber to be comfortable for me.

For hunting, a pistol is a lot less gun weight to have to schlep.

But you give up a lot. Including, eventually, your hearing for that 3-5 lbs. A scope-sighted handgun requires a rested shot. Handgun hunting, as much as gunmaker advertising would have one believe, is not some sort of stealthy CQB in a delightful woodland setting.

Your chances of wounding an animal and not recovering it go way up too. Best to limit your handgun hunting to stands in high fence operations rather than fair chase. That way you have the sort of 'just-so' setup handgun hunting demands.


And if weight is that much of an issue, fresh game meat is probably way too heavy to carry.

[piscator]

Let's touch upon the "sporting press" for a moment.

Magazines like Handgun Hunter are typically started by gun manufacturers, with money from gun manufacturers, or by someone connected to the gun industry who recognized the not-insignificant opportunity associated with providing an advertising vehicle for gun manufacturers, gizmo peddlers, and commercial hunting operations.

With few exceptions, mostly limited to Ted Kerasote, Hemmingway, or Howard Roark reprints, Every article is implicit advertisement that exposes you to the more explicit advertising between and around the articles. This is no secret.


Kthnxbai

[Seth]

Stupid shit about some zoo bear in Ely, Minnesota, or that 703lb one those Libertarians in Craig fed for years and murdered in its den before they mis-weighed it are not evidence that you really need to carry a gun in a Forest Service campground in Colorado.

There's other vermin about in the woods than just bears.

It's a scary place, for some people.

It's not scary, it's good citizenship to clean up vermin when one chances across them. It's much easier to do if you have a gun.

There are less than 30 7+ foot blackies sealed in Alaska/yr. The one on my wall weighed less than 400 lbs, but I killed him above treeline. Some places, blackies can get at salmon runs and get fatter, but they aren't going to bother anyone.

Until they do.

When Raccoons Attack!

At 9:30 on a sunny July morning, the screaming starts: a ragged, half-human keen that pierces the halcyon woods flanking our western Pennsylvania home. My wife, Debbie, our 11-year-old son, Jack, and I run outside to see what's being murdered. There, beside a patch of Big Boy tomatoes, stand our two pugs, Lefty and Biscuit, with something scruffy and feral wedged between them. It takes a moment to realize what exactly is happening. A 20-pound raccoon has affixed its teeth to the jowly flesh of Biscuit's muzzle and won't let go.

I grab a shovel and pin the raccoon's torso to the ground, which only intensifies the creature's screams. Putting my full weight into it, I try to shovel the attacking beast in half. Debbie grabs Biscuit's trunk and tries to yank her free, but the raccoon's teeth refuse to unclamp. Debbie yells for our friend Rudy Plese, who's inside working on a carpentry job. He runs out and grabs another shovel.

"Hit it on the head," shouts Debbie, whose own hands are now perilously close to the raccoon's teeth. Rudy raps the beast's brainpan once, then again, and again.

"Whack it harder," I say, trying my best to snap its spine with my own shovel...

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... ons-attack[/quote]

You ever seen a pissed-off raccoon? Nasty bastards that can cause a lot of damage, and they carry rabies.

"Handgun hunting" is a "sport" invented by gun manufacturers and practiced by 9th-level losers who're so far down the road that gun magazines count as journalism. Just the type of douchebag who becomes an insufferable expert after he visits a high fence shooting ranch in Texas and comes back with an Axis deer. When I see a "Handgun Hunter", I know I'm looking at a truly rare bird.

Self defense is not hunting.

I thought you had mentioned the many joys of hunting with a handgun recently in this thread. My bad.

Not me, but there's nothing wrong with handgun hunting if that's your bag.

(Last time I read about a .454 Casull being used, it was a guy who claimed he had to get out of his car and empty it in a charging 9+ foot brownie's back (don't worry about it, no one else thinks that makes sense either). A year later, that same guy's brother stood behind a tree at 3AM and opened up on a sow and 3 cubs with his fucking AR-15 at the Russian River Ferry. One cub lived after the USF&WS had to put down the mother and 2 cubs. Orphan "Goldie" made it for another year on stolen coolers and fish carcasses, before he was killed by another bear.)

Sucks to be a bear sometimes, what with man at the top of the food chain. Plenty of bears about, none of them will be missed.

I bet you can say that for a lot of people, Seth.

And you can't? Yes, I can think of a number of people the world would be or would have been much better off without.

Good to see you regard bears highly enough to anthropomorphize them like that, but can't you see that both these assholes have initiated force and fraud upon the public property?

Self defense and hunting are perfectly in accord with Libertarian principles.

A 12ga pump is the only serious choice for bear defense this side of a Holland's. But now we're talking grizzlies, and then only misunderstandings. Blackies are not a personal protection issue in Alaska, anymore than in Colorado. I've raised a daughter and 3 sons here in Bear Country, BTW.

Really? Ask these folks.

Hadn't been a fatal bear attack in Colorado in decades, and that one in '93 is a little dodgy. He might have been asking for it too. Hollow justification to carry a firearm in my book, but you evidently needed one, so you seized it. I live in one of the thickest concentrations of blackies in Ak, and just like my neighbors, I only pack a gun on extended hikes or rides, or when I'm hunting. We see bears all the time, but don't feel threatened.

I see bears frequently too and I don't feel threatened...until I do. Just because I carry a defensive handgun in the back-country doesn't mean I'm inclined to shoot any animal that comes close enough to hit. It's there to use if, and only if the animal attacks or poses a legitimate threat.

Take cougars for example. If you see a mountain lion in Colorado and it is less than about 100 yards from you, is looking at you and it is not in the act of fleeing, it is thinking about eating you, or possibly your dog or child. If you encounter a mountain lion that is watching you from a distance of 50 feet or less, you are in immediate and imminent jeopardy of being attacked, because lions don't get that close to anything they aren't contemplating eating, and therefore if you get that close to one, you need to shoot it right away, without hesitation.

If you are being stalked by a mountain lion (ie: being followed by one at a distance) you need to prepare to be attacked and you need to shoot the animal as soon as you can, if you can, regardless of the range to the animal from you because that animal has become habituated to humans and now views them as prey.

How long has it been since you ventured out of doors without a weapon of some kind? Don't you think that might be regarded as some type of obvious psychological crutch?

It's not a crutch, it's a tool, just like a hammer or a wrench. I carry it when and where I believe there might be a need to use it because it's prudent and reasonable to do so given the fact that if I don't need to use it it's nothing more than a lump of inanimate metal that I choose to carry with me, like a hammer. With any luck I'll never (again) need to even draw it from its holster. But if I do need to do so, there will be no time for me to go to the gun safe, open it, assemble the gun, load it and then try to respond to the threat, I'm going to need it right fucking now.

And right now I have a much greater need to be armed than at any time in the last 30 years I've been carrying because I am sheltering a family living in my basement who are legitimately in fear of the psychopathic and abusive ex-military father who has been stalking and harassing them since the mother began divorce proceedings. So not only do I carry my primary firearm, I carry a backup and I have my M-4 and Level IV body armor at the ready in my bedroom, along with my HK/Fabarms 12ga. shotgun, in the event of a home invasion by him and his biker buddies. The alarm system is in place and every approach to the house is covered by video cameras.

So no, it's not a crutch, it's a necessary tool.