The case against guns

[Collector1337]

Collector

There are people who hunt with hand guns, certainly. They would be the first to tell you how much harder that is compared to hunting with a rifle. A hand gun is much inferior as a hunting weapon.

Hand guns are designed to kill people, as their number 1 and prime function. They work at close range, meaning when one person is interacting with another, such as during an argument, or in the same room. Those uses are called murder. So I have no hesitation in describing hand guns as first and foremost as tools for murder.

Keeping a hand gun for "self defense" is self defeating since, as I have shown, having a hand gun increases (2 to 4 times according to NEJM), not reduces, your risk of being killed. It also drastically (2 to 10 fold according to NEJM) increases the odds of a member of your family killing him or herself.

As to my so called ignorance. No. Not so. As witnessed by the firm references I post. True ignorance comes from those people who rely on anecdotes and unsupported opinion.

They're all hand guns genius. Are you ever going to ever call it by its proper name?

Your argument is so shallow. Pistol=murder tool=bad. The logic is like a small child's. It's more complicated than your simplistic, uneducated, inexperienced, ignorant, and clueless view. And you continue to totally disregard my own personal experience.

Suicide is also completely irrelevant.

[JimC]

Collector1337 wrote:

And you continue to totally disregard my own personal experience.

Poor little you...

Why the fuck would anybody consider that to be of any relevance or importance, in comparison to actual facts?

[Collector1337]

Collector1337 wrote:

And you continue to totally disregard my own personal experience.

Poor little you...

Why the fuck would anybody consider that to be of any relevance or importance, in comparison to actual facts?

Actual facts? Like what?

I'll take my experience over your so-called "facts" any day.

[MrJonno]

Your argument is so shallow. Pistol=murder tool=bad. The logic is like a small child's. It's more complicated than your simplistic, uneducated, inexperienced, ignorant, and clueless view. And you continue to totally disregard my own personal experience.

Actually the argument humans being are bad (including 'law abiding citizens', will have to meet such a species one day) , keep them away from weapons as much as possible which is very very sensible argument

[Seth]

I do not feel aggrieved at being called a small pussy of a man. It is, after all, impossible to insult someone against his or her will. I feel no insult unless the person doing the insult is someone I respect. In that case it can hurt. But not here.

I was also called someone who should not own a gun, since I felt a surge of power when holding a loaded hand gun. That may even be true. Just as well I lack the sick desire to own a murder weapon.

However, if I fit that class, there will be many millions of Americans who also fit that class. None of them should own a gun for the same reason. Better to ban hand guns.

Seth, who claims I have not addressed the issue of "rights". I have addressed it more times than I can count. The answer is always the same. There are no divinely given "rights" because there is no divinity.

Nor are there any "natural rights", since nature, via evolution has no such concept.

"Rights"are, and always have been, just that which people in power condescendingly permit the people to have, and only then grudgingly and from political expedience.

In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?

[Seth]

Evolution has given us the intelligence to create tools and since we are just like any other animal, we have a right to defend our survival, just like any other animal would attack if scared or provoked.

Evolution has given me the intelligence to build a nail bomb. This could be used to defend my house and property from armed invaders.
Should I be allowed to do so?

Sure. Absolutely. And if you fuck up and hurt someone unlawfully, we'll put you in jail or will give you the needle.

[MrJonno]

In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?

No wanting to die doesn't give you a natural right to live

[Blind groper]

Seth said

"In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?"

That is perhaps the most stupid interpretation of something I posted that I have ever seen.

Rights are not divine and not natural. They are invented by imperfect, fallible humans, who often get it wrong. A 'right' to carry hand guns, a tool designed primarily for murder, is just plain stupid.

[JimC]

Seth said

"In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?"

That is perhaps the most stupid interpretation of something I posted that I have ever seen.

Rights are not divine and not natural. They are invented by imperfect, fallible humans, who often get it wrong. A 'right' to carry hand guns, a tool designed primarily for murder, is just plain stupid.

And the real stupidity is the belief that an armed citizenry is our only protection against totalitarian regimes.

I prefer to rely on an active free press and an educated public. In the West at least, the zeitgeist has moved on - we have learned some hard lessons from the past, and know the warning signs.

[Seth]

In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?

No wanting to die doesn't give you a natural right to live

No, it doesn't give YOU a natural right to live.

It most certainly gives ME, and the other six billion people on this planet the right to live.

But you evade the question again. Are you or are you not comfortable with your government deciding either randomly or capriciously to exterminate you for no better reason that it chooses to do so?

It's a yes or no answer.

[Seth]

Seth said

"In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?"

That is perhaps the most stupid interpretation of something I posted that I have ever seen.

Rights are not divine and not natural. They are invented by imperfect, fallible humans, who often get it wrong. A 'right' to carry hand guns, a tool designed primarily for murder, is just plain stupid.

You said: ""Rights"are, and always have been, just that which people in power condescendingly permit the people to have, and only then grudgingly and from political expedience."

I asked if you were comfortable with "people in power" arbitrarily deciding that they are not going to permit you to continue living.

Answer the fucking question.

Are you comfortable with government deciding to kill you for reasons of its own and without your consent?

It's a yes or no question. answer it.

[Collector1337]

Your argument is so shallow. Pistol=murder tool=bad. The logic is like a small child's. It's more complicated than your simplistic, uneducated, inexperienced, ignorant, and clueless view. And you continue to totally disregard my own personal experience.

Actually the argument humans being are bad (including 'law abiding citizens', will have to meet such a species one day) , keep them away from weapons as much as possible which is very very sensible argument

You just totally justified my need to own firearms.

Nice work.

[rainbow]

In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?

Yes, Seth but that doesn't happen in civilised countries, and for those of us living in civilised countries, it isn't an issue.

[MrJonno]

Are you comfortable with government deciding to kill you for reasons of its own and without your consent?

It's a yes or no question. answer it.

No and nor am I comfortable with the fact I'm going to die, that I don't have unlimited money and I have a large spot on my lip which is really painful at the moment but that doesn't change the fact that is reality.

You aren't master of your own life, you aren't captain of your ship and once you accept that you can get on with with living

[FBM]

Collector1337, this is a reminder by staff that this post contains a personal attack on another member, in violation of the Play Nice rule that you signed off on when you registered. Please direct your attacks at ideas instead of individuals. Repeatedly attacking another member eventually results in temporary suspension(s). Thank you.