First fully 3D printed gun now exists

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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by pErvinalia » Sat May 11, 2013 2:53 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I'm interested in the concept of 3D printing in general. It gets interesting when you throw guns/weapons into the mix. What's happening now reminds me a bit of what happened when internet "crime" really started to boom. There were no specific laws governing cyber crime, so police and regulators were scrambling to keep up and apply regular world laws to the cyber world. This was an inaccurate process and led to some absurd sorts of convictions while other people got away with stuff that could clearly be reasoned to be a crime. It seems now we are at that point with 3D printed guns. The regulations need to evolve to encompass this new technology. Trying to apply rules and regs from a different class isn't going to work. The next few years in 3D printing in general, and specifically in guns, is going to be very interesting to watch.
Um, er...it's ALREADY illegal to manufacture a firearm in the US without filling out a Form 1 and paying a $200 "making" tax, and by putting the required identification and serial numbers on the registered part and including a specified amount of metal so that the firearm will be detected by metal detectors.

It's a pretty serious federal felony in fact.

So, since making a 3D printed gun is already quite closely regulated, why do we need more regulations?
It's the same problem with the boom in cyber crime. The internet just makes it so much easier to do these things, and makes it available to a vastly wider audience. A law saying it is illegal to make a gun is fine when it takes some metal shop skills to do it (i.e. it's out of the reach of the vast majority of people). But we are going to be rapidly approaching a time when vast amounts of people are going to be able to easily make a gun. If they government/state/society/whatever is interested in keeping gun crime/fatalities as low as possible, then they are going to have to move with the times and introduce more relevant legislation. You made the point yourself essentially, which is why I was responding. The ban on the cad files online is an inaccurate attempt to use existing laws, from your own description, and aside from that it's not going to work in the slightest as the files will just be hosted peer to peer across the world.

I'm not necessarily arguing for more regulation (although, personally, that's what I would like), I'm just pointing out an interesting problem that evolving technology in whatever sphere you want to talk about presents a challenge to conventional regulation practices. And as with the cyber crime boom, regulation always lags new technologies. You don't have to get all defensive. It's simply an interesting phenomenon.
The fact of the matter is that the government CANNOT control this technology. It never could, and will never be able to do so, anymore than it can prevent criminals from getting, or building, their own firearms, bombs, knives, etc., or it could prevent the Soviets from getting our nuclear technology.

They can't suppress information, no matter how hard they try, if somebody else wants it badly enough.
I agree with you. The internet and digital technologies present a real problem to government control. Hence why we see governments all over the world trying to enact draconian censorship and/or spying laws over the internet.
This hysteria is just stupid. Few people are going to bother, and those that want to do so illegally would have done so anyway.
I can say without a doubt that when I have a capable 3D printer I will print a gun. I'm not going to jump through all the hoops here to get a gun that I know I will store safely and not go on a rampage with. Fuck that. It's going to be far easier to do it with a printer. I know it won't be the same quality or reliability as a proper gun, but I'm not particularly interested in those aspects while ever I can't afford it in both money or time jumping through hoops.
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Seth » Sat May 11, 2013 3:29 am

rEvolutionist wrote: I can say without a doubt that when I have a capable 3D printer I will print a gun. I'm not going to jump through all the hoops here to get a gun that I know I will store safely and not go on a rampage with. Fuck that. It's going to be far easier to do it with a printer. I know it won't be the same quality or reliability as a proper gun, but I'm not particularly interested in those aspects while ever I can't afford it in both money or time jumping through hoops.
Some aphorism about barn doors and horses comes to mind...
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by pErvinalia » Sat May 11, 2013 3:36 am

Yep, and that's always the way with new technologies and laws and regulations. Laws/regulations are always playing catchup. And now that technology is increasing so rapidly, it's getting worse and worse for legislators. I really see the soon to be advent of mass 3D printing by the seething masses to be a real critical stress point in governance. It will threaten both government power and undermine established economic powerhouses. I sense that the political elite aren't going to let this happen without a very big fight first. The internet and digital technology is really potentially the great equaliser. But it goes against the notions of power that have sustained governments and regimes for ever. Really interesting (and likely worrying) times. And I'd go as far as to say that this will see more common ground between the libertarian socialists sort of like myself and the right-libertarians like yourself.
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Seth » Sat May 11, 2013 3:58 am

rEvolutionist wrote:Yep, and that's always the way with new technologies and laws and regulations. Laws/regulations are always playing catchup. And now that technology is increasing so rapidly, it's getting worse and worse for legislators. I really see the soon to be advent of mass 3D printing by the seething masses to be a real critical stress point in governance. It will threaten both government power and undermine established economic powerhouses. I sense that the political elite aren't going to let this happen without a very big fight first. The internet and digital technology is really potentially the great equaliser. But it goes against the notions of power that have sustained governments and regimes for ever. Really interesting (and likely worrying) times. And I'd go as far as to say that this will see more common ground between the libertarian socialists sort of like myself and the right-libertarians like yourself.
Quite right. I've always said that the Internet is the single greatest advancement in human freedom in all of human history. I still believe that.

Just imagine if the French resistance had 3D printers and "Liberty pistol" plans during WWII. We wouldn't have had to manufacture them out of sheet metal here and air drop them into France.
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by MrJonno » Sat May 11, 2013 9:00 am

Quite right. I've always said that the Internet is the single greatest advancement in human freedom in all of human history. I still believe that.

Just imagine if the French resistance had 3D printers and "Liberty pistol" plans during WWII. We wouldn't have had to manufacture them out of sheet metal here and air drop them into France.
The French resistance weren't short of small arms, they were short of an army, tanks, air force and navy. Resistance was generally limited in WW2 until close to D-Day to rescuing airmen and intelligence purely due to retaliation by Nazi's. If you killed a German soldier for nothing other than honour knowing they would kill a 100 civilians in return you are much a murderer as the Nazi's.

Militia resistance doesn't work against a genuine tyranny due to this reason, its one reason to risk your own life its entirely another to risk your entire village or town. Do that and you rapidly run out of any support
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Seth » Sun May 12, 2013 1:29 am

MrJonno wrote:
Quite right. I've always said that the Internet is the single greatest advancement in human freedom in all of human history. I still believe that.

Just imagine if the French resistance had 3D printers and "Liberty pistol" plans during WWII. We wouldn't have had to manufacture them out of sheet metal here and air drop them into France.
The French resistance weren't short of small arms, they were short of an army, tanks, air force and navy. Resistance was generally limited in WW2 until close to D-Day to rescuing airmen and intelligence purely due to retaliation by Nazi's. If you killed a German soldier for nothing other than honour knowing they would kill a 100 civilians in return you are much a murderer as the Nazi's.
Turns out you don't know anything about World War II either. Unsurprising.
Militia resistance doesn't work against a genuine tyranny due to this reason, its one reason to risk your own life its entirely another to risk your entire village or town. Do that and you rapidly run out of any support
That's precisely why it's necessary for the ENTIRE populace to be armed against tyranny, so that they can mount effective military resistance against a tyrants minions and thereby prevent the tyrant from taking power in the first place.

And it's obvious that you know fuck-all about "militia resistance" too.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by MrJonno » Sun May 12, 2013 6:47 am

And it's obvious that you know fuck-all about "militia resistance" too
More than you, history shows it doesn't work ever. The only thing that can defeat an army is another army
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Seth » Sun May 12, 2013 6:56 am

MrJonno wrote:
And it's obvious that you know fuck-all about "militia resistance" too
More than you, history shows it doesn't work ever. The only thing that can defeat an army is another army
Tell the Taliban that. Or perhaps the Tamil Tigers. Or maybe the FALN.

Or, more pertinently, tell it to the "Militia resistance" of the Continental Army of 1776, which kicked the ass of Mad King George and his minions and freed the people of this nation from tyranny.

So, once again you demonstrate your abysmal ignorance of history. You really should knock that off, it makes you look incredibly stupid.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by MrJonno » Sun May 12, 2013 7:04 am

None of them were fighting tyrannies, shoot the terrorist/freedom fighters entire village end of resistance simple as that

See occupied Europe in WW2, a good example was the assassination of Reinhard Heydritch in Czechoslovakia, the retaliation by the Nazi's was the end of resistance there,

Anyone who sacrifices their own civilians for no military purpose other than honour is a coward and murderer.
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Blind groper » Sun May 12, 2013 11:35 pm

Seth wrote:
Or, more pertinently, tell it to the "Militia resistance" of the Continental Army of 1776, which kicked the ass of Mad King George and his minions and freed the people of this nation from tyranny.
Actually, those fighters were outnumbered, outgunned, and outskilled by a massively bigger, better equipped and better trained professional army.

The reason Britain lost is that France, Holland, and Spain entered the war, against the British. The poor bloody Brits were engaged on four fronts. The Americans were not even united, with many on the British side.

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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Seth » Mon May 13, 2013 12:49 am

Blind groper wrote:
Seth wrote:
Or, more pertinently, tell it to the "Militia resistance" of the Continental Army of 1776, which kicked the ass of Mad King George and his minions and freed the people of this nation from tyranny.
Actually, those fighters were outnumbered, outgunned, and outskilled by a massively bigger, better equipped and better trained professional army.
And yet they won.
The reason Britain lost is that France, Holland, and Spain entered the war, against the British. The poor bloody Brits were engaged on four fronts. The Americans were not even united, with many on the British side.
So what? We won, the Brits lost, and we're united now.

The point is that the citizen-soldiers of the state Militias were essential to our victory over the English. Had our citizenry been disarmed, which is precisely what the British were attempting to do at Concord, and had they not been "ready to fight in a minute," which is why they're called the "Minutemen," and had their network of spies not seen the column on the march and sent Paul Revere around to alert the armed citizenry, something other than the rout of the British and the Siege of Boston would have triggered the Revolutionary War, which, having been won by those same armed citizens along with regular army troops, was the genesis of the 2nd Amendment's prohibition against interference with the individual's natural right to keep and bear arms.

And we're going to keep it that way whether you like it or not.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:03 am

A much more practical, "metal" 1911 model...


...Seems to work just fine.
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by FBM » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:33 am

Huh. :eddy:
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by Azathoth » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:18 pm

Surely a crossbow would be a better idea if you want to 3d print a weapon on the quiet. No pissing around leaving a paper trail buying ammo
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Re: First fully 3D printed gun now exists

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:51 pm

Azathoth wrote:Surely a crossbow would be a better idea if you want to 3d print a weapon on the quiet. No pissing around leaving a paper trail buying ammo
Perhaps the materials are too rigid and brittle (as of yet) to make effective springs, etc.
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