This is purely a question for our UK members

[Trolldor]

What can you tell me about the Mau Mau revolt in 1950s or the Deccan plateau in 1876?
Without using google or wikipedia.

Edit: Or the internet, for that matter.

[AshtonBlack]

Not a great deal.

[Rum]

The Mau Mau was the activist violent arm an independence movement started I think by a guy called Kenyatta in Kenya. (Spelling could be wrong - this *is* from memory). They put the fear of god (sic) into the British colonials because of their habit of attacking Brit owned farms and farmers unannounced and with machetes. They were partly responsible for Kenya achieving independence. In passing it is an often overlooked and quite remarkable thing that the British empire collapsed and was handed back to native peoples with a relative lack of violence (there were of course exceptions). The British knew the game was up basically.

[Trolldor]

The Mau Mau was the activist violent arm an independence movement started I think by a guy called Kenyatta in Kenya. (Spelling could be wrong - this *is* from memory). They put the fear of god (sic) into the British colonials because of their habit of attacking Brit owned farms and farmers unannounced and with machetes. They were partly responsible for Kenya achieving independence. In passing it is an often overlooked and quite remarkable thing that the British empire collapsed and was handed back to native peoples with a relative lack of violence (there were of course exceptions). The British knew the game was up basically.

Found this, not sure how factual it is, but it was preceeded by how rather than supress it like the the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, it was just sort of... Brushed over. Just wondered if it was the case, and when you said 'relative lack of violence' it was a bit more convinced.

The British Responded by driving up to 320,000 of them in to concentration camps(3). Most of the remained - over a million - were held in "enclosed villages". Prisoners were questioned with the help of "Slicing off ears, boring holes in to eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit ciagrettes"(4). British Soldiers used a "metal castrating instrument" to cut off testicles and fingers. "By the time I cut his balls off," one settler boasted, "he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one I think, was haning out of its socket."(5) The soldiers were told they could shoot anyone they liked, "provided they were black"(6). Elkin's evidence suggests that over 100,000 Kikuyu were either killed by the British or died of starvation inside the camps. David Anderson documents the hanging of 1090 suspected rebels - far more than the French executed in Algeria(7). Thousands more were summarily executed by Soldiers, who claimed they had "failed to halt" when challenged.

3,5 - Caroline Elkins, Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya (London: Jonathon Cape, 2005)
4,6 - Mark Curtis, Web of Deceit: Britain's Real Role in the World (London: Vintage, 2003)
7 - David Anderson, Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire (London: Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 2005)

[Rum]

The Mau Mau was the activist violent arm an independence movement started I think by a guy called Kenyatta in Kenya. (Spelling could be wrong - this *is* from memory). They put the fear of god (sic) into the British colonials because of their habit of attacking Brit owned farms and farmers unannounced and with machetes. They were partly responsible for Kenya achieving independence. In passing it is an often overlooked and quite remarkable thing that the British empire collapsed and was handed back to native peoples with a relative lack of violence (there were of course exceptions). The British knew the game was up basically.

Found this, not sure how factual it is, but it was preceeded by how rather than supress it like the the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, it was just sort of... Brushed over. Just wondered if it was the case, and when you said 'relative lack of violence' it was a bit more convinced.

The British Responded by driving up to 320,000 of them in to concentration camps(3). Most of the remained - over a million - were held in "enclosed villages". Prisoners were questioned with the help of "Slicing off ears, boring holes in to eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit ciagrettes"(4). British Soldiers used a "metal castrating instrument" to cut off testicles and fingers. "By the time I cut his balls off," one settler boasted, "he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one I think, was haning out of its socket."(5) The soldiers were told they could shoot anyone they liked, "provided they were black"(6). Elkin's evidence suggests that over 100,000 Kikuyu were either killed by the British or died of starvation inside the camps. David Anderson documents the hanging of 1090 suspected rebels - far more than the French executed in Algeria(7). Thousands more were summarily executed by Soldiers, who claimed they had "failed to halt" when challenged.

3,5 - Caroline Elkins, Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya (London: Jonathon Cape, 2005)
4,6 - Mark Curtis, Web of Deceit: Britain's Real Role in the World (London: Vintage, 2003)
7 - David Anderson, Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire (London: Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 2005)

Your point? I'm not defending British colonialism. However 2/3 of the land surface of the world was British controlled and 'owned' in the colonial sense by the late 1800s. The fact that it was all returned to its rightful (and not so rightful) owners by the late 1950s without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

[Sisifo]

without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

I hope you are joking. Apart of the fact that independence was granted after years of conflict with hundreds of thousands of Kenyans massacred, tortured and raped, the British (and French) post colonialism, leaving the political power to keen barons while keeping the Economy in the hands of the colonialist companies, is nothing to be but sorry and apologetic.

[Trolldor]

The Mau Mau was the activist violent arm an independence movement started I think by a guy called Kenyatta in Kenya. (Spelling could be wrong - this *is* from memory). They put the fear of god (sic) into the British colonials because of their habit of attacking Brit owned farms and farmers unannounced and with machetes. They were partly responsible for Kenya achieving independence. In passing it is an often overlooked and quite remarkable thing that the British empire collapsed and was handed back to native peoples with a relative lack of violence (there were of course exceptions). The British knew the game was up basically.

Found this, not sure how factual it is, but it was preceeded by how rather than supress it like the the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, it was just sort of... Brushed over. Just wondered if it was the case, and when you said 'relative lack of violence' it was a bit more convinced.

The British Responded by driving up to 320,000 of them in to concentration camps(3). Most of the remained - over a million - were held in "enclosed villages". Prisoners were questioned with the help of "Slicing off ears, boring holes in to eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit ciagrettes"(4). British Soldiers used a "metal castrating instrument" to cut off testicles and fingers. "By the time I cut his balls off," one settler boasted, "he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one I think, was haning out of its socket."(5) The soldiers were told they could shoot anyone they liked, "provided they were black"(6). Elkin's evidence suggests that over 100,000 Kikuyu were either killed by the British or died of starvation inside the camps. David Anderson documents the hanging of 1090 suspected rebels - far more than the French executed in Algeria(7). Thousands more were summarily executed by Soldiers, who claimed they had "failed to halt" when challenged.

3,5 - Caroline Elkins, Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya (London: Jonathon Cape, 2005)
4,6 - Mark Curtis, Web of Deceit: Britain's Real Role in the World (London: Vintage, 2003)
7 - David Anderson, Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire (London: Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 2005)

Your point? I'm not defending British colonialism. However 2/3 of the land surface of the world was British controlled and 'owned' in the colonial sense by the late 1800s. The fact that it was all returned to its rightful (and not so rightful) owners by the late 1950s without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

I never said you were defending it, I'm saying what you know about it is wrong.

[Thinking Aloud]

without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

I hope you are joking. Apart of the fact that independence was granted after years of conflict with hundreds of thousands of Kenyans massacred, tortured and raped, the British (and French) post colonialism, leaving the political power to keen barons while keeping the Economy in the hands of the colonialist companies, is nothing to be but sorry and apologetic.

Emotive words.

The OP and subsequent posts hint at attempting to shame UK members by revealing our ignorance of horrors in the country's past - "tell me what you know about this event and this event without looking it up", or perhaps shock us into anger at our nation for "covering up" past atrocities.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the British Empire had its share of abuses - hasn't every major power done so in its time? And hasn't every major power played down those events in its own glorious history? I dare say that my living standards today, and probably my existence, owe no small thanks to the evils of exploitative Empire in the past. Am I expected to feel personal remorse or shame for of the actions (and the ignorance) of people of five generations ago who, by chance, I came to share a geographical heritage with?

[Trolldor]

without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

I hope you are joking. Apart of the fact that independence was granted after years of conflict with hundreds of thousands of Kenyans massacred, tortured and raped, the British (and French) post colonialism, leaving the political power to keen barons while keeping the Economy in the hands of the colonialist companies, is nothing to be but sorry and apologetic.

Emotive words.

The OP and subsequent posts hint at attempting to shame UK members by revealing our ignorance of horrors in the country's past - "tell me what you know about this event and this event without looking it up", or perhaps shock us into anger at our nation for "covering up" past atrocities.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the British Empire had its share of abuses - hasn't every major power done so in its time? And hasn't every major power played down those events in its own glorious history? I dare say that my living standards today, and probably my existence, owe no small thanks to the evils of exploitative Empire in the past. Am I expected to feel personal remorse or shame for of the actions (and the ignorance) of people of five generations ago who, by chance, I came to share a geographical heritage with?

Completely and utterly wrong, and that's most profoundly because you don't know shit about me. It's not ignorance, the simple fact is the reason you don't know anything about it, the reason you are "ignorant" about it as a general public, is because it was a deliberate attempt to make you so.
Edit:
I don't want reactions, I don't put stock in bawwing, I was just interested on whether
A) it was correct
and
B) What your reaction would be

[Thinking Aloud]

Completely and utterly wrong, and that's most profoundly because you don't know shit about me.

I'm very sorry I misinterpreted yours and others posts.

[Rum]

without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

I hope you are joking. Apart of the fact that independence was granted after years of conflict with hundreds of thousands of Kenyans massacred, tortured and raped, the British (and French) post colonialism, leaving the political power to keen barons while keeping the Economy in the hands of the colonialist companies, is nothing to be but sorry and apologetic.

This is the height of revisionism - history seen through the eyes of modern day values. There was no pristine state of being to return most of the territories to - things had moved on and of course in great measure because of colonialism. Are you suggesting that the Brits (or other colonial powers) should just have upped stakes and left them to it, or that Realpolitik should have been ignored?

[Rum]

without total war breaking out in the colonies is something of an achievement I would suggest.

I hope you are joking. Apart of the fact that independence was granted after years of conflict with hundreds of thousands of Kenyans massacred, tortured and raped, the British (and French) post colonialism, leaving the political power to keen barons while keeping the Economy in the hands of the colonialist companies, is nothing to be but sorry and apologetic.

Emotive words.

The OP and subsequent posts hint at attempting to shame UK members by revealing our ignorance of horrors in the country's past - "tell me what you know about this event and this event without looking it up", or perhaps shock us into anger at our nation for "covering up" past atrocities.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the British Empire had its share of abuses - hasn't every major power done so in its time? And hasn't every major power played down those events in its own glorious history? I dare say that my living standards today, and probably my existence, owe no small thanks to the evils of exploitative Empire in the past. Am I expected to feel personal remorse or shame for of the actions (and the ignorance) of people of five generations ago who, by chance, I came to share a geographical heritage with?

Completely and utterly wrong, and that's most profoundly because you don't know shit about me. It's not ignorance, the simple fact is the reason you don't know anything about it, the reason you are "ignorant" about it as a general public, is because it was a deliberate attempt to make you so.
Edit:
I don't want reactions, I don't put stock in bawwing, I was just interested on whether
A) it was correct
and
B) What your reaction would be

God you can be a prat. I withdraw this remark as it is personal abuse.

[klr]

Completely and utterly wrong, and that's most profoundly because you don't know shit about me.

I'm very sorry I misinterpreted yours and others posts.

You shouldn't be. The British Empire was huge, and thus the amount of historical detail to be covered in any study of it is correspondingly daunting. It is hardly surprising that seemingly major episodes could get overlooked, sometimes due to the residual effects of factual suppression or whitewashing - or just plain ignorance.

BAA, why are you (apparently) spoiling for a fight? There was no need to pursue this in the confrontational way that you have done. You could have responded to TA's very reasonable and carefully worded observation without the "you don't know shit about me" bit.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ain't a Brit, but I know of Jomo Kenyatta.

[Clinton Huxley]

No doubt the Empire's apron is not entirely without stains but then the time since independence has hardly been a barrel of laughs, either. Of course, independence had to come but former African colonies have not been well served by their post-colonial rulers. See The State of Africa by Martin Meredith for a comprehensive catalogue of post-colonial corruption and genocide.

This is an odd thread...